Some Scope Creep - Revision history

Isı: Close parenthesis)

2025-03-03T19:21:51Z

Close parenthesis)

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:21, 3 March 2025
Line 5:		Line 5:
	* {{t\|shoe kuq}} acts like an atomic verb, as in vanilla Toaq Delta, and so		* {{t\|shoe kuq}} acts like an atomic verb, as in vanilla Toaq Delta, and so
	* {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means: {{t\|∃x shoe kuq jí súq x}}.		* {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means: {{t\|∃x shoe kuq jí súq x}}.
	** (In No Scope Creep, it means {{t\|shoe jí ∃x kuq súq x}}.		** (In No Scope Creep, it means {{t\|shoe jí ∃x kuq súq x}}.)

	So serials remain their old-school scope behavior, where {{t\|shoe kuq}} behaves the same as a would-be compound {{t\|kuqshoe}}.		So serials remain their old-school scope behavior, where {{t\|shoe kuq}} behaves the same as a would-be compound {{t\|kuqshoe}}.

Laqme: Category:Proposals

2025-02-25T19:07:52Z

Category:Proposals

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:07, 25 February 2025
Line 10:		Line 10:

	<small>(But then how do we explain "why" {{t\|shoe}} does not scope over its complement ({{t\|kuq … súq sá}})? Laqme thinks maybe we really should just treat serials like {{t\|shoe kuq}} as ''syntactically'' the same sort of thing as atomic verbs, and model serialization using type-shifting instead of movement. See [[Weird VPs]].)</small>		<small>(But then how do we explain "why" {{t\|shoe}} does not scope over its complement ({{t\|kuq … súq sá}})? Laqme thinks maybe we really should just treat serials like {{t\|shoe kuq}} as ''syntactically'' the same sort of thing as atomic verbs, and model serialization using type-shifting instead of movement. See [[Weird VPs]].)</small>

			[[Category:Proposals]]

Laqme: split off Weird VPs

2025-02-25T19:02:46Z

split off Weird VPs

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:02, 25 February 2025
Line 1:		Line 1:
	[[Hoemaı]]'s response to [[No Scope Creep]] was a suggestion to consider serial verbs separately from other cases.		[[Hoemaı]]'s response to [[No Scope Creep]] was a suggestion to consider serial verbs separately from other cases. '''Some Scope Creep''' is a variant of that proposal which does exactly that:

	~~Under '''Some Scope Creep''',~~ {{t\|bu kuq jí sá}} means ¬(∃x {{t\|kuq jí x}}) and {{t\|ao kuq jí sá}} means AO(∃x {{t\|kuq jí x}}), just like in ~~NSC~~ — but {{t\|shoe kuq}} ~~still~~ acts like an atomic verb as in vanilla Toaq, and so {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means ∃x {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq x}}.		* {{t\|bu kuq jí sá}} means ¬({{t\|∃x kuq jí x}}), and
			* {{t\|ao kuq jí sá}} means AO({{t\|∃x kuq jí x}}), just like in No Scope Creep — but
			* {{t\|shoe kuq}} acts like an atomic verb, as in vanilla Toaq Delta, and so
			* {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means: {{t\|∃x shoe kuq jí súq x}}.
			** (In No Scope Creep, it means {{t\|shoe jí ∃x kuq súq x}}.

	~~[[File:SerialAsConstituent.png\|thumb\|frame\|"~~{{t\|shoe kuq}}" as a ~~constituent. It's clear why things in TP and above make scopes but~~ {{t\|~~shoe~~}} ~~does not~~.]]		So serials remain their old-school scope behavior, where {{t\|shoe kuq}} behaves the same as a would-be compound {{t\|kuqshoe}}.

	~~In fact, [[Laqme]] thinks~~ we ~~should analyze serial verbs as constituents, rather than using movement. In that case, it's natural that~~ {{t\|shoe}} ~~would~~ not ~~introduce~~ scope~~; rather,~~ {{t\|~~shoe~~ kuq}} ~~can somehow be considered a V, reflecting that~~ serials ~~and atomic verbs ''really are'' syntactically the same. (This would change the behavior of {{t\|ru}}, but perhaps for the better!)~~		<small>(But then how do we explain "why" {{t\|shoe}} does not scope over its complement ({{t\|kuq … súq sá}})? Laqme thinks maybe we really should just treat serials like {{t\|shoe kuq}} as ''syntactically'' the same sort of thing as atomic verbs, and model serialization using type-shifting instead of movement. See [[Weird VPs]].)</small>

	~~(I guess there is some "internal structure" to a serial V. I imagine~~ {{t\|shoe~~}} can "apply to" {{t\|~~kuq}} ~~to get~~ the ~~meaning~~ of ~~{{t\|shoe kuq}}~~, ~~if you do a silly amount of~~ type-shifting. Or maybe there is a covert operator in any serial that knows how to "do" the serialization — {{t\|shoe kuq}} is really {{t\|shoe x<sub>shoe</sub> kuq}} where {{t\|x<sub>shoe</sub>}} is some unpronounced operator that implements [[~~Serial_verb#Merging_definitions\|merge-into]] for {{t\|shoe}}'s [[frame~~]].)

	So basically: scope acts as described in [[No Scope Creep]], serial verbs are just verbs, and there is no movement in VPs. This is a big step away from Chomsky-style generative grammar, towards something more like Montague grammar / ~~[[effects\|effectful]] parsing / continuations and type-checking-based semantics.~~

Laqme: reword the serialization operator idea

2025-02-25T17:46:04Z

reword the serialization operator idea

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:46, 25 February 2025
Line 7:		Line 7:
	In fact, [[Laqme]] thinks we should analyze serial verbs as constituents, rather than using movement. In that case, it's natural that {{t\|shoe}} would not introduce scope; rather, {{t\|shoe kuq}} can somehow be considered a V, reflecting that serials and atomic verbs ''really are'' syntactically the same. (This would change the behavior of {{t\|ru}}, but perhaps for the better!)		In fact, [[Laqme]] thinks we should analyze serial verbs as constituents, rather than using movement. In that case, it's natural that {{t\|shoe}} would not introduce scope; rather, {{t\|shoe kuq}} can somehow be considered a V, reflecting that serials and atomic verbs ''really are'' syntactically the same. (This would change the behavior of {{t\|ru}}, but perhaps for the better!)

	(I guess there is some "internal structure" to a serial V. I imagine {{t\|shoe}} can "apply to" {{t\|kuq}} to get the meaning of {{t\|shoe kuq}}, if you do a silly amount of type-shifting. Or maybe there is a covert operator in any serial that knows how to "do" the serialization — {{t\|shoe kuq}} is really {{t\|shoe xä kuq}} where {{t\|~~xä}}~~<sub>~~m,n~~</sub> ~~has type ⟨⟨e<sup>m</sup>,t⟩,⟨⟨e<sup>n</sup>,t⟩, ⟨e<sup>m+n-1</sup>,t⟩⟩⟩ and~~ implements [[Serial_verb#Merging_definitions\|merge-into]].)		(I guess there is some "internal structure" to a serial V. I imagine {{t\|shoe}} can "apply to" {{t\|kuq}} to get the meaning of {{t\|shoe kuq}}, if you do a silly amount of type-shifting. Or maybe there is a covert operator in any serial that knows how to "do" the serialization — {{t\|shoe kuq}} is really {{t\|shoe x<sub>shoe</sub> kuq}} where {{t\|x<sub>shoe</sub>}} is some unpronounced operator that implements [[Serial_verb#Merging_definitions\|merge-into]] for {{t\|shoe}}'s [[frame]].)

	So basically: scope acts as described in [[No Scope Creep]], serial verbs are just verbs, and there is no movement in VPs. This is a big step away from Chomsky-style generative grammar, towards something more like Montague grammar / [[effects\|effectful]] parsing / continuations and type-checking-based semantics.		So basically: scope acts as described in [[No Scope Creep]], serial verbs are just verbs, and there is no movement in VPs. This is a big step away from Chomsky-style generative grammar, towards something more like Montague grammar / [[effects\|effectful]] parsing / continuations and type-checking-based semantics.

Laqme: expand caption

2025-02-23T15:24:14Z

expand caption

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:24, 23 February 2025
Line 3:		Line 3:
	Under '''Some Scope Creep''', {{t\|bu kuq jí sá}} means ¬(∃x {{t\|kuq jí x}}) and {{t\|ao kuq jí sá}} means AO(∃x {{t\|kuq jí x}}), just like in NSC — but {{t\|shoe kuq}} still acts like an atomic verb as in vanilla Toaq, and so {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means ∃x {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq x}}.		Under '''Some Scope Creep''', {{t\|bu kuq jí sá}} means ¬(∃x {{t\|kuq jí x}}) and {{t\|ao kuq jí sá}} means AO(∃x {{t\|kuq jí x}}), just like in NSC — but {{t\|shoe kuq}} still acts like an atomic verb as in vanilla Toaq, and so {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means ∃x {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq x}}.

	[[File:SerialAsConstituent.png\|thumb\|frame\|"shoe kuq" as a constituent]]		[[File:SerialAsConstituent.png\|thumb\|frame\|"{{t\|shoe kuq}}" as a constituent. It's clear why things in TP and above make scopes but {{t\|shoe}} does not.]]

	In fact, [[Laqme]] thinks we should analyze serial verbs as constituents, rather than using movement. In that case, it's natural that {{t\|shoe}} would not introduce scope; rather, {{t\|shoe kuq}} can somehow be considered a V, reflecting that serials and atomic verbs ''really are'' syntactically the same. (This would change the behavior of {{t\|ru}}, but perhaps for the better!)		In fact, [[Laqme]] thinks we should analyze serial verbs as constituents, rather than using movement. In that case, it's natural that {{t\|shoe}} would not introduce scope; rather, {{t\|shoe kuq}} can somehow be considered a V, reflecting that serials and atomic verbs ''really are'' syntactically the same. (This would change the behavior of {{t\|ru}}, but perhaps for the better!)

Laqme: write it

2025-02-23T15:18:13Z

write it

New page

[[Hoemaı]]'s response to [[No Scope Creep]] was a suggestion to consider serial verbs separately from other cases.

Under '''Some Scope Creep''', {{t|bu kuq jí sá}} means ¬(∃x {{t|kuq jí x}}) and {{t|ao kuq jí sá}} means AO(∃x {{t|kuq jí x}}), just like in NSC — but {{t|shoe kuq}} still acts like an atomic verb as in vanilla Toaq, and so {{t|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means ∃x {{t|shoe kuq jí súq x}}.

[[File:SerialAsConstituent.png|thumb|frame|"shoe kuq" as a constituent]]

In fact, [[Laqme]] thinks we should analyze serial verbs as constituents, rather than using movement. In that case, it's natural that {{t|shoe}} would not introduce scope; rather, {{t|shoe kuq}} can somehow be considered a V, reflecting that serials and atomic verbs ''really are'' syntactically the same. (This would change the behavior of {{t|ru}}, but perhaps for the better!)

(I guess there is some "internal structure" to a serial V. I imagine {{t|shoe}} can "apply to" {{t|kuq}} to get the meaning of {{t|shoe kuq}}, if you do a silly amount of type-shifting. Or maybe there is a covert operator in any serial that knows how to "do" the serialization — {{t|shoe kuq}} is really {{t|shoe xä kuq}} where {{t|xä}}m,n has type ⟨⟨em,t⟩,⟨⟨en,t⟩, ⟨em+n-1,t⟩⟩⟩ and implements [[Serial_verb#Merging_definitions|merge-into]].)

So basically: scope acts as described in [[No Scope Creep]], serial verbs are just verbs, and there is no movement in VPs. This is a big step away from Chomsky-style generative grammar, towards something more like Montague grammar / [[effects|effectful]] parsing / continuations and type-checking-based semantics.

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:21, 3 March 2025
Line 5:		Line 5:
	* {{t\|shoe kuq}} acts like an atomic verb, as in vanilla Toaq Delta, and so		* {{t\|shoe kuq}} acts like an atomic verb, as in vanilla Toaq Delta, and so
	* {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means: {{t\|∃x shoe kuq jí súq x}}.		* {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means: {{t\|∃x shoe kuq jí súq x}}.
	** (In No Scope Creep, it means {{t\|shoe jí ∃x kuq súq x}}.		** (In No Scope Creep, it means {{t\|shoe jí ∃x kuq súq x}}.)

	So serials remain their old-school scope behavior, where {{t\|shoe kuq}} behaves the same as a would-be compound {{t\|kuqshoe}}.		So serials remain their old-school scope behavior, where {{t\|shoe kuq}} behaves the same as a would-be compound {{t\|kuqshoe}}.

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:02, 25 February 2025
Line 1:		Line 1:
	[[Hoemaı]]'s response to [[No Scope Creep]] was a suggestion to consider serial verbs separately from other cases.		[[Hoemaı]]'s response to [[No Scope Creep]] was a suggestion to consider serial verbs separately from other cases. '''Some Scope Creep''' is a variant of that proposal which does exactly that:

	~~Under '''Some Scope Creep''',~~ {{t\|bu kuq jí sá}} means ¬(∃x {{t\|kuq jí x}}) and {{t\|ao kuq jí sá}} means AO(∃x {{t\|kuq jí x}}), just like in ~~NSC~~ — but {{t\|shoe kuq}} ~~still~~ acts like an atomic verb as in vanilla Toaq, and so {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means ∃x {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq x}}.		* {{t\|bu kuq jí sá}} means ¬({{t\|∃x kuq jí x}}), and
			* {{t\|ao kuq jí sá}} means AO({{t\|∃x kuq jí x}}), just like in No Scope Creep — but
			* {{t\|shoe kuq}} acts like an atomic verb, as in vanilla Toaq Delta, and so
			* {{t\|shoe kuq jí súq sá}} means: {{t\|∃x shoe kuq jí súq x}}.
			** (In No Scope Creep, it means {{t\|shoe jí ∃x kuq súq x}}.

	~~[[File:SerialAsConstituent.png\|thumb\|frame\|"~~{{t\|shoe kuq}}" as a ~~constituent. It's clear why things in TP and above make scopes but~~ {{t\|~~shoe~~}} ~~does not~~.]]		So serials remain their old-school scope behavior, where {{t\|shoe kuq}} behaves the same as a would-be compound {{t\|kuqshoe}}.

	~~In fact, [[Laqme]] thinks~~ we ~~should analyze serial verbs as constituents, rather than using movement. In that case, it's natural that~~ {{t\|shoe}} ~~would~~ not ~~introduce~~ scope~~; rather,~~ {{t\|~~shoe~~ kuq}} ~~can somehow be considered a V, reflecting that~~ serials ~~and atomic verbs ''really are'' syntactically the same. (This would change the behavior of {{t\|ru}}, but perhaps for the better!)~~		<small>(But then how do we explain "why" {{t\|shoe}} does not scope over its complement ({{t\|kuq … súq sá}})? Laqme thinks maybe we really should just treat serials like {{t\|shoe kuq}} as ''syntactically'' the same sort of thing as atomic verbs, and model serialization using type-shifting instead of movement. See [[Weird VPs]].)</small>

	~~(I guess there is some "internal structure" to a serial V. I imagine~~ {{t\|shoe~~}} can "apply to" {{t\|~~kuq}} ~~to get~~ the ~~meaning~~ of ~~{{t\|shoe kuq}}~~, ~~if you do a silly amount of~~ type-shifting. Or maybe there is a covert operator in any serial that knows how to "do" the serialization — {{t\|shoe kuq}} is really {{t\|shoe x<sub>shoe</sub> kuq}} where {{t\|x<sub>shoe</sub>}} is some unpronounced operator that implements [[~~Serial_verb#Merging_definitions\|merge-into]] for {{t\|shoe}}'s [[frame~~]].)

	So basically: scope acts as described in [[No Scope Creep]], serial verbs are just verbs, and there is no movement in VPs. This is a big step away from Chomsky-style generative grammar, towards something more like Montague grammar / ~~[[effects\|effectful]] parsing / continuations and type-checking-based semantics.~~